From: StyleWar (stylewar@cox.net)
Date: Sun Aug 06 2006 - 12:43:22 EDT
Daniel,
To use your language, it may be true that we are all seasoned professionals
-- but it is likely also true that we are not all equal in our seasoning. We
should recognize THAT CAUSE as a potential explanation for the disagreement,
and let the crucible of truth burn off all the bad opinions, rather than
give each opinion equal merit and say that "it's more art than science."
I agree that this specialty involves artful sections, I also feel pretty
strongly that what you describe is merely incredible aptitude for one
skillset or another. More than once I've stood next to a gent and wondered
what sort of magic he used to accomplish his tasks...it might has well have
been art, because I understood science, but I didn't understand how HE did
it.
So - for whatever it's worth --- while some specialties are not easily
understood or accomplished by all, we should be careful not to use the 'art'
analogy as a broad brush method for explaining away a lack of our own depth
in any of them....
-
StyleWar
"Happiness makes up for in height, what it lacks in length"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Accioly Rosa [mailto:listas.accioly@terra.com.br]
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:40 PM
> To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Subject: RE: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest
>
> What I find most interesting in these discussions is that
> even tough we are all seasoned professionals, we can't agree
> 100% on a definition neither to Vulnerability Assessment or
> Pen Testing.
>
> What lesson should we take from this? I'm not saying that we
> don't know what we are doing (most of use here are very good
> professionals), but maybe there is too much "art" in this
> job... Each day that goes by I believe more and more that we
> need to agree on common grounds on how we perform our duties...
>
> You are right StyleWar, coffee now would be nice.. :)
>
> Daniel Accioly Rosa, CISA CISSP
> daniel.accioly[AT]terra.com.br
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: StyleWar [mailto:stylewar@cox.net]
> Sent: 06 August 2006 01:01
> To: sol@haveyoubeentested.org; 'Mark Ausley, CISSP'
> Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Subject: RE: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest
>
> I can break it down like legos.
>
> The value proposition of a pen test is an understanding of
> whether the investment into detection and response is at an
> appropriate level.
>
> The value proposition of a vulnerability assessment is an
> understanding of whether internal controls such as patch
> management, physical security etc.
> are adequate given a specific risk tolerance.
>
> Although one may use elements of the other, they are, and
> will forever be- very different things (despite the
> boutique's attempts to make them 'the same thing').
>
> In the hands of a good pen tester, a pen test does NOT have
> to exploit vulnerabilities in order to achieve its value proposition.
>
> In the hands of a good analyst, a vulnerability assessment
> will avoid excessive commentary on specific exploitable
> conditions, and instead expose the flaws that created the
> opportunity for those vulnerabilities to exist in that
> environment in the first place...
>
> ...Now-- go get me some coffee...Teaching makes me tired.
>
> :)
>
> -
>
> StyleWar
>
> "never underestimate the dousing effect of cubicles and
> consensus management on the candles of creativity and leadership"
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sol Invictus [mailto:sol@haveyoubeentested.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:13 AM
> > To: Mark Ausley, CISSP
> > Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> > Subject: RE: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest
> >
> > You guys are making this way too complicated.
> >
> > The only difference between a Vulnerability Assessment and a
> > Penetration Test is the fact that a Pen test will verify that the
> > vulnerabilities are in fact exploitable by actually
> exploiting those
> > vulnerabilites.
> >
> > Many services will perform a VA and never run any exploits
> and try to
> > pass it as a Pen test. If you have someone doing that,
> then they are
> > trying to overcharge you.
> >
> > The price between a VA and a Pen-test can be significant.
> > Why is that?
> > it's the level of responsibility that the Pen-testers must take.
> >
> > It's very important that your Service provider know the
> difference and
> > is able to explain the difference. If they can't do that then you
> > should not use their services. If they have a high priced
> VA then you
> > need them to justify the "value adds".
> >
> > Sol.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2006-08-05 at 00:47 -0400, Mark Ausley, CISSP wrote:
> > > A Vulnerability Assessment can vary in scale and complexity
> > but will
> > > generally include the following:
> > >
> > > 1. External scan with Nessus, STAT, Retina, etc to obtain general
> > > security posture of systems.
> > > 2. Internal scan with something like CIS tools, DISA
> scripts, Gold
> > > Disk etc to assess the configuration of the systems and
> > their patch levels, etc.
> > > There is some overlap between these first two steps.
> > > 3. Review system architecture and associated documentation.
> > > 4. Interview SysAdmins & Engineers on system operation.
> > > 5. Review existing policy, procedures, SOPs, etc.
> > > 6. Perform and document the risk analysis.
> > >
> > > A PEN test on the other hand can include any number of
> the VA items
> > > but usually include a much wider array of testing tools.
> > >
> > > A PEN test is usually a few hours to a few days as
> opposed to a VA
> > > which can take months to perform. Also, during PEN tests
> > you usually
> > > have little knowledge of the target systems prior to the
> test. A VA
> > > involves unrestricted access and knowledge of the target systems.
> > >
> > > A PEN test usually has a pre-set goal. The scope of the
> testing and
> > > its goal is usually spelled out to the tester and can be
> limited or
> > > unlimited. A PEN test can be more likely to break or
> disrupt normal
> > > operations than a VA and always requires official documents
> > indicating what is allowed.
> > >
> > > PEN tests really illustrate the relationship of
> vulnerabilities and
> > > how they can string together to open a hole in what
> > appeared to be a solid wall.
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Mark
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: James Harless [mailto:jharless@kidwellcompanies.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 4:57 PM
> > > To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> > > Subject: Vulnerability Assessment vs. PenTest
> > >
> > > Where is the line between a Vulnerability Assessment and a
> > PenTest?
> > > In other words, which tests do you run which identifies your
> > > assessment as a pentest rather than a VA?
> > >
> > > And, related, do VAs still have value? Do you feel that
> a PenTest
> > > includes everything that a VA would (and more)?
> > >
> > > My thoughts are that a VA is just an effort to document all the
> > > identified and potential vulnerabilities on a network. A
> > PenTest is
> > > an attempt to identify those vulnerabilities and then
> > exploit some of
> > > them to verify their weakness.
> > >
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> >
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This List Sponsored by: Cenzic
Concerned about Web Application Security?
Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's
Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise,
you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the
most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration
testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a
managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software
(Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can
help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php
And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your
results from other product. Contact us at request@cenzic.com for details.
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