From: Bob Radvanovsky (rsradvan@unixworks.net)
Date: Fri May 12 2006 - 12:53:14 EDT
I have one even better...
READ THIS ARTICLE. This only stipulates some of the things that I've been saying for the past several years. This college has taken one step further.
http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid14_gci1186919,00.html
-r
P.S. Will this have an impact on how the industry views certifications? You bet!
----- Original Message -----
From: Serge Vondandamo [mailto:serge.vondandamo@wanadoo.fr]
To: 'Adviser' [mailto:theadviser@gmail.com], "'Benson, Sean M'" [mailto:BensonS@state.gov], pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
> The opposite seems to be the case on this thread.
>
> IT LOOKS LIKE WHOEVER IS NOT CERTIFIED ARE GENIUS AND CERTIFIED ONES ARE
> DUMBOOS. :-)
>
> I will suggest the following cooking recipe:
>
> 1. Help the non-certified ones understand the value of the certification
> process (not the paper) and get them certified. This awareness should come
> from the certificate holders.
>
> 2. Help the certified ones with limited knowledge to fill the gap. This can
> be achieved by writing papers, organising webcasts, offering tips and free
> tutorials. This should come from the most experienced ones.
>
> Then if God hear my prayers and everyone is committed we will not be so
> divided and be able to fill the gaps.
>
> It is a shame for our community to be so divided.
>
> Regards,
> Serge
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Adviser [mailto:theadviser@gmail.com]
> Envoyé : jeudi 11 mai 2006 20:25
> À : Serge Vondandamo; 'Benson, Sean M'; pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Objet : Re: CISSP-ISSMP
>
> It looks like whoever is certified are genius and non certfied are dumboos.
> :-)
> Regards
> Adviser
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Serge Vondandamo" <serge.vondandamo@wanadoo.fr>
> To: "'Benson, Sean M'" <BensonS@state.gov>; <pen-test@securityfocus.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:59 AM
> Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
>
>
> All,
>
> I don't know if people contributing in this thread have gone through recent
> certification process or not. Believe me; the process itself adds value to
> the person taking it. And that is where HR sticks.
>
> Before even the idea to be certified will start arising, one must have known
> the materials and touched the technology. I don't believe that a carpenter
> will wake up in a morning and start thinking about getting certified as a
> security professional and earn the certificate without knowing the
> materials.
>
> I agree that old certs exams used to be fancy and easy and, that some folks
> may have limited understanding of the concepts and hands-on skills but one
> thing I am sure is that, they KNOW the materials! And going trough a cert
> process will help them improve, increase and fill the gap!
>
> So, by the time they got certified they surely gain more in their
> understanding and use of the materials.
>
> That is why HRs like certified people and that is also why the industry
> wants us to be certified.
>
> Make no mistakes here, knowing the materials only is not enough, one must go
> trough a certification process and get certified.
>
> I am proud to be a certified security professional :)
>
> Serge Vondandamo, CISSP, CCNA
>
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Benson, Sean M [mailto:BensonS@state.gov]
> Envoyé : mercredi 10 mai 2006 16:32
> À : pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Objet : RE: CISSP-ISSMP
>
> All,
>
> I think there's a point that was touched upon but not followed through.
>
> Certs are sort of new to the scene. (relatively)
>
> I'm certified out the wazoo, but I hardly even mention it.
> Why? I have a resume and references.
>
> Certs are a multi-million dollar business, from university of phoenix
> MCSEs to Certified spyware inspectors.
> It's a scam.
>
> Learn a useless cert from a useless certified instructor because network
> world said this is needed and your furute PHB read the damn article.
>
> Unfortunately we will have to do it until people get wise.
> And as it's HR pogues and PHBs that we are waiting for, it may be a
> really long time.
>
> I've been around since Noah's animal inventory system version 1.0 was
> first fuzzed.
> and I can give one peice of advice:
>
> Do good work, study constantly, learn the systems, keep your references
> and resumes up to date,
> and when enough certified boobs break things, then it will be the
> resumes/references that help separate the wheat from the chaff.
>
>
> sbenson
> BOFH+
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright@bdosyd.com.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 4:57 PM
> To: Bob Radvanovsky; Nathaniel Hirsch
> Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Subject: RE: CISSP-ISSMP
>
>
> Hi,
> Although I agree with much of what you have said, it needs to be taken
> into context. Unless there is some focus on the question, there will be
> no correlation to the answers.
>
> First as to not wanting ""generalists". They want "specialists"." This
> is wholly dependant on the organisation, the size and the focus. Whilst
> true in many larger organisations, it is generally not so in SME's where
> a limit to staffing precludes having a specialised IT function for each
> IT discipline.
>
> If you want to get more money this is another issue. I have never
> received a job or a pay rise for industry certs. Any rise that I have
> received would have occurred either way. Having completed a MMgt (Master
> of Management, similar to a specialist MBA) I have found that this has
> aided my career more than any of the certs.
>
>
> From a point of view of risk and security, the LLM I am currently
> completing has added far more value to clients than any of the certs,
> and thus helps my career more. It is amazing how much more you can get
> done arguing legal and contract requirements with an outsource vendor
> than trying to enforce firewall rules etc on a purely technical basis.
> For those out there wanting to get into the Digital forensic sciences, a
> law degree or two will do more for your career than a whole bag of
> industry certs.
>
> A PhD will get 5-10% (averaged) income greater than a standard Masters
> of the same discipline. As far as cost effectiveness, the time to
> undertake the degree and the costs associated with completing it make it
> unlikely that you will earn more over your life. Why do it? There are a
> number of reasons. Myself, I am involved in both industry and academia,
> and for the most part I enjoy a mix of business and academic life.
>
>
> Statistics training should be a requirement PRIOR to allowing people to
> spurt off on their interpretation of statistical data and it should be
> mandated before people are allowed to start one of the generally flawed
> studies that abound.
>
> So why do "I" pay the extra for an ISSMP (which incidentally I do not
> use on my card etc). Because I wanted it. Because I can deduct half on
> tax and have the other half paid for anyway.
>
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
> PS As for research masters and esp. doctoral degrees, I have had 1
> employer (ever) read any of my dissertations (and he only read the first
> 3 chapters). No client that I know of ever has. Even than, like most
> people in the industry with doctorates, my doctorate is not in IT, so
> all it shows is "advanced research" training.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Radvanovsky [mailto:rsradvan@unixworks.net]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 May 2006 11:30 PM
> To: Nathaniel Hirsch
> Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Subject: Re: CISSP-ISSMP
>
> This doesn't surprise me. Nor does it surprise me that now, many people
> are finding out that their certifications are either meaningless, or
> have significantly less value than what they were lead to believe. It
> is almost like 'snake oil salesmen', promising a cure to an ailment that
> sassafrass oil doesn't have any medical correlation with. Certification
> companies stipulate that certified people have a better chance at
> getting jobs -- not true anymore. A recent survey concluded that people
> *are not* getting those jobs based upon their certifications. Some
> companies stipulate that certifications may get you more money in places
> you are already employed. Again, not true. I have known folks who have
> passed their CISSP -- or whathaveyou -- certification, only to have IT
> management say "that's nice", and move on. They're still doing the same
> job, with no pay increase, and no job structure realignment.
>
> Can't say that I've told many of you that "I told you so" -- but -- "I
> told you so". ;P
>
> What companies want are well-rounded people (not literally; if we did,
> we'd have a seriously huge problem here) with a balance between
> education, certification, experience, know-how, abilities, and
> willingness to 'do the right thing'.
>
> Many 'security jobs' are nothing shy than that of an overly glorified
> 'security guard' job: you sit in front of a desk, and *wait* for a
> telephone call or alter to pop up on your monitor screen. It is purely
> RE-active, not PRO-active. People feel that if they get a
> certification, that they will get a chance at the glitz and glamour, see
> the sights, and most importantly, get paid...well. It's all a lie. You
> are just another 'security monkey' to The System, and your role is one
> of thousands to fulfill a role for something else. Sure, they want you
> to get your CISSP (and if you read/listened to what you said, you might
> understand what I'm saying here, friend) so they can charge more for
> your efforts. The key words here are "charge more for *your* efforts".
> Does that mean that *you* will get paid more? Doubtful. If at all, all
> you've done is justified your existence in that organization for an <X>
> period of time, before they either don't need you any longer, don't want
> you any longer, or plan on selling your company. The fact is, you, like
> so many out there, believe that all of this will save your sorry butts,
> prevent you from getting laid off, and get you some more money. I'm
> sorry, but in the world today, that's just sooooo wrong.
>
> Today's scale of economy doesn't work based on the hard work ethic
> principle any more. It's much, much different now: "How can I make as
> much money as possible, doing the least amount of work possible, while
> retaining the least amount of people possible?" Those kinds of
> questions are what's going through your manager's or their manager's
> minds. There are a few "pockets" out there that reward people for their
> hard work and efforts. But let's face it, Corporate America doesn't
> care, except for 'bottom line'. That's it. Nothing more.
>
> If you get a certification, or an education somewhere, that's nice.
> Good for you! You got it because you *wanted* to get it, because you
> feel that it's something that will help you, both externally and (more
> importantly) internally. Not because you *think* you will get more
> money. If your *sole* purpose is to get money, you're doing it all for
> the wrong reasons. The certification companies *want* you to believe
> the money idealism at all costs, and, of course, *charge* both you and
> organization for getting there. Of course, if you don't get what you
> want, you can come back, and take another class, and another, and
> another...
>
> Let me share a few insights with you...
>
> I have several degrees, including a Masters of Science degree, with
> close to 28 certifications (not all are IT-related). I've been in this
> business for OVER 28 years, and have seen all sorts of flim-flam artists
> come and go, and people promising the sun, moon and stars. The
> certification folks provide *some* utility, but not for what you think
> it's for. It's a 'weeding mechanism'; that is, when you get tired at
> your currently lillypad, and decide to move to another lillypad, and
> there is a tie between you and another candidate, the recruiter or HR
> person will look at *both* of your qualficiations and see if there is
> something that stands out between the two of you. If you have a
> certification, and they don't, and the job stipulates that a
> certification is "recommended", it's simple: you -- more than likely --
> you might get the job. But then, I've seen other factors play into
> things, too. Some companies are cost-conscientious, where 'bottom line'
> rules. If the other candidate is a senior-level technician, has 15
> years exerpience, and wants $80,000, versus someone else who has 5-7
> years experience, and wants only $55,000, then it's really a moot point.
> No matter what the person has done, or is capable of doing, companies
> will make a decision based *solely* upon the salary and NOT upon the job
> qualfications (which I have seen soooo many times in the past). Also,
> most recruiters are considered 'technical idiots'; that is, they know
> some of the lingo and terms, but cannot figure out if someone is
> performing a 'snow job' on them or not. In most cases, it comes down to
> the hiring manager to help filter through all the junk, to determine if
> someone is (truly) trying to pull a fast one on them. Sooner or later,
> the truth comes out if that individual is trying to pull a fast one, but
> lately, it doesn't seem to work any more. Also, recruiters and HR
> people have 'quotas' -- of course, they'll deny that they have quotas,
> but this is bunk. How many times have you applied for a job, only to
> find out that there are 6 other ones like the one you are applying for,
> different titles, all pointing to the EXACT SAME JOB? This phenomenon
> is becoming more and more prevalent these days, thanks for online
> job-boards such as Monster of Hotjobs. And, of course, recruiters want
> you to work with them because of the 'exclusivity' that they have to
> offer. Rrrrrrrrright. The *best* jobs -- believe it not -- never make
> it to the recruiter's organization. What the recruiters get are the
> 'scum jobs' -- the hard-to-fill jobs that no one can, or will want, to
> fill. They are simply trying to find a person, who matches <X>% of the
> qualifications, to fill that role. Period. End of discussion. It's
> all a matter of economics.
>
> I currently work with a 'technical idiot', but this person is shrewd and
> cunning. They leave just minutes before an event happens, often times,
> leaving me to do all of the work. We are a 'team' -- so long as I do
> ALL of the technical grunt work, while he gets to attend meetings and
> drink coffee all day (yes, it's striaght out of Dilbert, or the movie
> "Office Space", if you've ever watched it -- excellent movie). Doesn't
> sound fair, does it? Life isn't fair, and neither is working in a
> corporate environment. Get used to it, kiddo. You're going to see more
> and more people who have a 'technical IQ' of an ant, but the prowisness
> and cunning to that of a puma. Not all IT or IT security people
> actually *know* what they're doing. That's why they've got...you.
>
> Many of them, are nothing more than 'paperpushers'; most of them rely on
> people like *you* to do the job that they *should* be doing, but fill
> other roles like 'customer relations'. Sometimes, it works for the
> better. Many (often times, most) times, it does not. Most people and
> organizations are lazy, and want to lay claim that it is someone else's
> fault for not getting the job done. This is why we have job
> segmentation/compartmentalization today. Or haven't you noticed? You
> do ONE thing in your job -- THAT'S IT. The Days of Generalized
> Specialization are almost dead. Companies don't want "generalists".
> They want "specialists". And why do you ask? So, when they have no
> further need of your services, they simply get rid of you, your job, or
> your position entirely. It's all "ala carte" nowadays. And the
> certifications are an almost *direct* correlation to that mindset.
>
> Finally, it's not *what* you know, it's *who* you know that counts these
> days, what connections you have, how well-to-do you are, and if you have
> any *influence* that you can exert over your 'target' (that being a
> manager). And the security industry is no exception. In fact, it's far
> more political than standard IT-related work, because of the 'human
> factor' involved. You interact with humans more often than computers,
> and thus, the amount of politics increases accordingly. It is very
> proportional.
>
> Know that you're not the only person who's going through this. Many
> other technicians and security folk alike, will probably agree with me
> that this is more commonplace today than ever before. Those of us who
> are "old farts" (been in 'da biz for more than 10 years), know that
> times are changing -- rapidly. I don't what other advise I can give
> you, except be flexible, and always keep looking. I've been doing the
> same durn thing now for over 15 years. Does it get tiring? You bet it
> does, esp. when you aren't appreciated nearly as much as the next
> person. But, be thankful that you even have a job in a time when our
> jobs are continually being threatened by outsourcing, or worse,
> offshoring. Unless you like curry chicken, you have to keep your
> options open...and your mouth shut. If you don't like what you have at
> your place, move on; otherwise, find ways to work with the
> psychodynamics of your workplace, of which there are plenty of books out
> there on the subject. ;))
>
> Hope this helped...
>
> -r
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nathaniel Hirsch [mailto:nh2@njit.edu]
> To: Mohamed Abdel Kader [mailto:makster12@hotmail.com]
> Cc: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Subject: Re: CISSP-ISSMP
>
>
> > I recently got my CISSP. The company that I work for paid for me to
> > go to a class, and take the test assuming I passed. If I failed then
> > the $500 would be on my nickle. Thankfully I did not fail. The main
> > reason they wanted me to get my CISSP is now they can charge more for
> > the work they contract me out to, this and you need it or some other
> > equivalent to do level 3 and 4 DITSCAP testing. As for an ROI after I
>
> > passed a got a 15% raise which was nice, but I was also up for a
> > raise, so I can not tell you how much that was due to the CISSP, and
> > how much was due to my overall performance at the company. Personally
>
> > I feel that the exam and certification process is a waste of time, and
>
> > so does everyone else at the company, but they are needed, or so they
> > say. However we have a guy who works here who is a CISSP and a
> > CEH(certified ethical hacker), and to be truthful, he is quite
> > possible the most worthless tester I have ever had to work with, and
> > everyone else in the office knows this. So having the cert doesn't
> > make you good, and doesn't prove to anyone that you have experience or
>
> > skill. It just proves that you can pick the correct answer out of a
> > four possible answer on a 250 question multiple choice exam. As for
> > giving an out of 10 scale for everything you mentioned I guess they
> > would all be 5s because it all really depends on a lot of other
> > things. As for what job its good for, I would have to say more
> > managerial then anything else. The topics covered are really only
> > puddle deep, not enough to know whats going on, just enough to know
> > that it is going on though.
> >
>
> >
>
> > Nathaniel Hirsch, CISSP
> > Xacta Corporation
> > 656 Shrewsbury Ave.
> > Shrewsbury, NJ 07702
> >
>
> > On 5/8/06, Mohamed Abdel Kader <makster12@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > I was wondering if anyone out there did the CISSP-ISSMP
> concentration.
> > > I want to know the value added in the areas listed below, in an out
> of 10
> > > scale for example:
> > >
> > > Total ROI
> > > Career Advancement
> > > Industry Demand
> > > Raise Potential
> > >
> > > Suitable for what job/position (not an out of 10 answer of
> course :))
> > >
> > > I also want to know the material to study from.
> > >
> > > Thanks a million.
> > > MAK
> > >
> > >
> >
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