From: Nathan (nouellette@comcast.net)
Date: Wed Dec 28 2005 - 11:03:51 EST
I agree with Erin on this point.
If the message to your client is one of providing a hacker's
perspective, that's not necessarily that far off. One thing I always
attempt to educate people on is the fact that hackers aren't necessarily
highly skilled technologists who are part of an organized crime unit
looking to harvest credit card numbers or other personally identifiable
information. In fact, I would lump the casual employee looking around
the network, the disgruntled user who knows just so much and the elite
hacker all into the same category..."unauthorized access".
If you step back and look at other aspects of a company's security
posture, they might not have the desktop locked down at all. Users
could very well be Power Users, or worst yet, Local Admins. They can
then execute most programs and might have a complete lack of content
security in place, giving them free range to poke around Google and
download whatever tools they want. If the networks aren't segmented and
the end user population can ping/see every critical production server in
and out of the DMZ, you have a perfect scenario for someone internally
to stumble their way through using the exact tools you're talking about,
NMAP, Nessus and Metasploit. So by performing a VA and PT using
commercially available or free tools, you are doing some sort of
proof-of-concept for your client. You are showing them exactly what a
casual or disgruntled user just might see from the inside. I know this
is a fundamental explanation for security folks, but to a client who is
attempting to assess risk from a system and network perspective, I think
it's incredibly useful information, regardless of the tools you use.
I believe the value of the engagement comes from the consultant (who
clearly has to know what their doing in terms of scanning and testing)
who performs the service and who can break down the results
intelligently and make good recommendations that are pertinent to the
client, regardless of the tools used.
-Nathan
-----Original Message-----
From: Erin Carroll [mailto:amoeba@amoebazone.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 1:16 AM
To: 'InfoSecBOFH'; 'Michael Weber'
Cc: rklemaster@hotmail.com; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: 3rd party vuln assesment firms
> I love it when vendors make claims such as this;
>
> "A Hacker's Eye View of Your Network"
>
> and even better;
>
> "We use the same tools hackers bring to bear against your systems.
> However, instead of exploiting those vulnerabilities, we
> compile vulnerability results with easy to understand
> explanations and links to the needed patches and updates, and
> then deliver the reports to your desktop on a regular basis. "
>
> So in other words they run NMap and/or Nessus.
>
> Yup... h4x0rs eye view. ROFL.
Nmap.. Okay you have a point as it realy only identifies what is open.
Nessus on the other hand is a happy medium where you can poke at the
openings to see what happens. Not all organizations have the in-house
security expertise to perform security audits and Nessus (along with
other
similar tools such as the Metasploit framework, Core Impact, etc) is one
of
the better tools out there to perform relatively in-depth scans of your
infrastructure. No, it doesn't take a lot of skill to run a tool but
interpreting the results, winnowing out the false positives, and knowing
which of the issues found is relevant and important (and how to address
them) is where the skill and knowledge is important.
Is it truly a hacker's view of your network? Sure... for a certain level
of
hacker. Is it Uber l337? No. However, not many businesses need (or can
afford) the kind of in-depth analysis and expertise you'd find at the
upper
level of the industry. Code auditing, custom-written NASL exploit
packages,
deep understanding of the intricate details of each application... These
are
great if you can afford it or absolutely must have it. But past a
certain
point you face diminishing returns and you have to decide at which point
it
is secure "enough".
The more experience I've gained in security, the more I need to learn.
Looking back I can see how naïve my concept of security was when I
started
and I can only imagine what I'll think of my skills now in 10 years. At
some
point we were all script kiddies using tools written by others.
Eventually
you learn to write your own and use the existing tools out there to
their
fullest potential. But the old adage still remains true: The only truly
secure system is one encased in cement and sunk to the botom of the
ocean...
And even then I'm making no guarantees. :)
-Erin Carroll
Moderator
SecurityFocus pen-test list
>
> On 12/27/05, Michael Weber <mweber@alliednational.com> wrote:
> > Happy New Year!
> >
> > I have been using both the internal and external vuln. assessment
> > products from NetChecker. They use an array of standard
> tools, along
> > with some custom code and human analysis. I like the product, the
> > price, and the results.
> >
> > www.netchecker.net is their web site.
> >
> > -Michael
> >
> > >>> <rklemaster@hotmail.com> 12/23 11:27 AM >>>
> > I'm looking for a firm to conduct annual 3rd party vulnerability
> > assesments for a nationwide carrier ISP. If anyone has any
> references
> > or stories to share, I'd like to hear about them.
> > thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking
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> -----------------
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.8/215 - Release
> Date: 12/27/2005
>
>
-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.8/215 - Release Date: 12/27/2005 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking applications on your website. Up to 75% of cyber attacks are launched on shopping carts, forms, login pages, dynamic content etc. Firewalls, SSL and locked-down servers are futile against web application hacking. Check your website for vulnerabilities to SQL injection, Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! Download Trial at: http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/pen-test_050831 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking applications on your website. Up to 75% of cyber attacks are launched on shopping carts, forms, login pages, dynamic content etc. Firewalls, SSL and locked-down servers are futile against web application hacking. Check your website for vulnerabilities to SQL injection, Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! Download Trial at: http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/pen-test_050831 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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