RE: Email Pen-testing

From: James Taylor (james_n_taylor@yahoo.com)
Date: Tue Mar 23 2004 - 07:50:16 EST


To drift slightly off topic... For me a vulnerability scan has much more value
to most companies than a pen test. That is , of course, if you apply the
principle that a vuln scan should be performed at each perimeter layer, against
all hosts, then assess the risk by taking each vulnerability discovered in the
context of the network as a whole.

Too often one hears of a pen test, where as soon as the 'testers' find a
vulnerability, they focus on that one vulnerability and, more likely than not,
are able to break in to that system. End of pen test. What about the rest of
the network? A pen test may also be assisted, i.e. they will have some insider
knowlnedge through the direct relationship. The cost, in time and manpower, is
high, therefore it goes without saying that the value of the data will be high,
often meaning that true pen tests are limited to high wealth industries.

A final point is that it's only performed at a single point in time - networks
are living breathing beings that change on an almost daily basis. Yes, a
vulnerability may be discovered on a particular day and system, exploited by
the pentester and closed by the ops team. Surely the time, money and effort if
often better spent, in the eyes of senior management who want to see some form
of return for their outlay, by measureing all [known] vulnerabilities over
time, by performing regular vulnerability scans. Ideally the result will be a
reduction in overall vulnerabilites, and a picture of where the high, medium
and low vulnerabilities are in their correct context.

To drift back on topic... With this case in mind, how wide is the scope of the
test, and how far can one go is all down to what the company wants and is
prepared to pay for. As long as the company is aware and agrees to what is
being performed, and what the limitations are, fine. What are attackers going
to do? Knock on the front door, or perhaps try some social engineering to see
if there are any other ways in? Most large companies have 'semi-trusted'
connections to third parties, or will take over/merge with other companies
[make the announcement to the markets], then merge the networks - this is
public information.

Regards
James Taylor
CISSP

--- "R. DuFresne" <dufresne@sysinfo.com> wrote:
>
> It's about time the industry, IT as a whole comes to understand;
>
> a pentest is something much more then a simple port/vuln scan from
> outside.
>
>
> a simple port/vuln scan has it's value, as a way to probe for potential
> risks. A *real* pentest is an attempt to actually make use of potential
> holes, show they are in fact real risks, and will in fact be able to be
> exploited to gain illegal//unwanted entry into an org's systems and to
> their core data and apps. At lesat tince Mitnick's days social
> engineering has shown to be a major gateway to resources that should be
> better protected.
>
> A company asking for a mere set of potentials wants a sweet little report
> done on a port/vuln scan that anyone with minimal skills can accomplish.
> A companyt actually wishing to determine how well they have done their job
> of protecting assests might opt for a full pentest, with all the stops out
> of the bag. Advance warnings of each and every step is not a level
> playing filed and certainly does not resemble reality for sure.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron DuFresne
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Kevin wrote:
>
> > Well, human are the weakest link in the security ring.. and social
> > engineering is always the easiest (if not the best) technique to open up
> > loopholes in a security system.
> >
> > Although it's an area which requires most emphasizes and concern, it is
> > also the most sensitive area where security managers get stuck often in.
> >
> > If the company is ok with social engineering in the pen test, then I
> > suppose it's ok.. It's ethical as long as you're doing it for a cause
> > not malicious and harmful.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Blake [mailto:netspan@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:22 AM
> > To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> > Subject: Email Pen-testing
> >
> >
> >
> > Wanted to get your opinion on something...
> >
> > Doing a pen-test for a small bank which was proving very difficult to
> > get it. A friend of mine suggested I send a backdoor trojan attachment
> > via an email. If they clicked on it, the backdoor performs maybe a
> > boxscan, grab passwords, and connects out to the Internet. --Much like a
> > virus.
> >
> > I think this type of testing is becoming more relevant nowadays,
> > especially with whats out there. It reinforces properly configured
> > antivirus software and user awareness.
> >
> > I spoke with a previous customer of mine about the idea. He said he
> > would be very upset if he was not told prior to that type of test as
> > part of normal pen-testing.
> >
> > Generally speaking, my code of ethics doesn't allow me to social
> > engineer. I don't like lying and misleading people. Also people tend to
> > hate you after they've been punk'd.
> >
> > What's your ideas on the email pen-tesing?
> >
> >
> > -Blake
> >
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> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team?
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> admin & senior security consultant: sysinfo.com
> http://sysinfo.com
>
> "Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It
> eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
> business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation."
> -- Johnny Hart
>
> testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team?
> Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the latest
> techniques from a world-class research group.
> www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

=====
w: http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~james-jac
other e: james dot taylor at swiftdsl dot com dot au

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're a pen tester, but is google.com still your R&D team?
Now you can get trustworthy commercial-grade exploits and the latest
techniques from a world-class research group.
www.coresecurity.com/promos/sf_ept1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



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