From: Craig Wright (cwright@bdosyd.com.au)
Date: Wed Mar 07 2007 - 03:04:11 EST
Hi,
On occasion and if done in the right way, than yes the whistle blower laws may help. Much of the trouble with good intentions is that people jump in without thinking first.
Shawn Carpenter seems to have faired ok. He has won his case (even if there is a later appeal) for the moment. If this comes through he is in a rather good position and the judgement if it sticks will make others think twice at least. They do not have long to file the appeal, so it will not be long to see what happens here.
In this case, the organisation was clearly stupid. Alerting the media is one thing, telling the fed's another. Being sacked for doing his duty, well Sandia deserve to get all they deserve.
Regards,
Craig
________________________________
From: Ivan . [mailto:ivanhec@gmail.com]
Sent: Wed 7/03/2007 5:54 PM
To: Craig Wright
Cc: McCarty, Eric C.; Dotzero; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: Re: The legal / illegal line?
I guess not everyone gets shafted for doing the right thing, as demonstrated by this poor chap
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9011832
One would imagine that whistleblower legislation would also offer some protection in certain circumstances?
cheers
Ivan
On 3/7/07, Craig Wright <cwright@bdosyd.com.au> wrote:
Hi Ivan,
The Good Samaritan laws vary by jurisdiction. There are a number of separate ones and some even apply here in Australia in limited instances.
These rules are designed to restrict actions against wrongful death. This is tortious actions by a third party such as family of the deceased.
In many civil law countries (eg. France) these go further and make the person responsible for aiding the other party and may have the person criminally liable for a failure to act.
In case 2 of my original reply, the person giving aide had also impeded another from aiding the injured party. In this case, the wrongful death tort would be actionable. Worse still, where the Good Samaritan laws apply, the person is not allowed to stop rendering aid without extenuating circumstances or unless another party with equal or greater skill steps in to help.
The party responding is not liable for tortious action for the death, disfigurement or disability of the victim as long as they acted as a "rational person". By stopping the additional assistance, the person would not be held to have acted reasonably and thus would be liable.
Clear as mud.
You are correct, I have some legal training. I am completing an honours masters (LLM - International commercial law) at the moment - expect to complete the dissertation in Jan/Feb next year. Following this I am starting a PhD in Economics/Law (on the economic impact of ecommerce and e-crime legislation and its effects). I also have a few papers published in a couple legal journals.
And for those who like to call me a lawyer (not that this bothers me, but I do not get paid for it), yes I am working on a post grad law degree, but I also have several masters degrees in IT related fields. So :P
http://www.infoage.idg.com.au/index.php/id;1151410747;fp;512;fpid;1874290912 < http://www.infoage.idg.com.au/index.php/id;1151410747;fp;512;fpid;1874290912 <http://www.infoage.idg.com.au/index.php/id;1151410747;fp;512;fpid;1874290912> >
Regards,
Craig
PS - academic junkie and proud of it ;)
________________________________
From: Ivan . [mailto:ivanhec@gmail.com]
Sent: Wed 7/03/2007 2:24 PM
To: Craig Wright
Cc: McCarty, Eric C.; Dotzero; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: Re: The legal / illegal line?
Hi Craig,
It's obvious that you have legal training, but how does the good Samaritan laws affect your ascertin in case 2? If you attempt in vain to save the person, you are not responsible for the loss of life? at least in the US and Canada?
I don't think there is anything similiar here in Australia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
cheers
Ivan
On 3/6/07, Craig Wright <cwright@bdosyd.com.au> wrote:
> So in your opinion, companies have a legal right to put my credit card
information, social security information, medical information, etc. at
risk?
No, and this is not what I stated. There are privacy and credit
protection laws to cover this.
I do agree that the laws are f_cked as you put it, but we live in a
democracy (or at least most ppl on this list do) and the tyranny of the
majority wins. Most people are afraid of change and thus the changes
that occur are those lobbied for by those with a vested interest.
However, where do you draw the line? I admit the law is far too sided
with stopping others from helping (or taking the law into their own
hands), but where do you draw the line.
As an example (excluding cases where there is an obligation in this case
such as a parent child relationship); A person is (except in a FEW
jurisdictions where there are explicit help laws - which would mean
making a phone call) drowning in a puddle. You see them and stop. You do
nothing to stop others seeing you or the other person and do not
interfere. It is clear that the other person is drowning in the puddle.
They seem unconscious. To save them all you have to do is roll them over
- at no cost to yourself. You decide to wait and watch them die. You
have done nothing legally wrong.
Case 2. You see a person in trouble. Another person is going to run for
help but you state that you can handle it and tell them not to go to the
phone. They comply. You fail in your attempt to save the person, but it
is likely that a trained person (if they arrived) could have saved them.
You are legally responsible for the person's death.
"Just seems backasswards to me." Yes, and to many people I would
believe. But most people do not take an interest, and thus laws are
biased away for societies interests.
This is a topic best off this list however. The point is not if the law
is right or wrong, but that it is there.
Regards,
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: McCarty, Eric C. [mailto: emccarty@er.ucsd.edu <mailto:emccarty@er.ucsd.edu > ]
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2007 9:01 AM
To: Craig Wright; Dotzero; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: The legal / illegal line?
I agreed up until...
"People and firms have a legal right to ignorance. As much as we may
want to change this, they have the right to live in their own stupidity
and bare their own risk. You do not have the right to make them agree
with you - even if you are right."
ORLY?
So in your opinion, companies have a legal right to put my credit card
information, social security information, medical information, etc. at
risk?
You may perhaps be very right, but I'm certain we can now see very
clearly how f__cked the laws we live under regarding Information
technology are.
I think laws should be amended to protect the do-gooders who find and
report vulnerabilities, since as you mentioned, many companies live in
ignorance and care less, why should the consumer be left at the mercy of
the "bad people" (black hats if you will) instead of protected by the
"good people" (white hats if you will) ?
Just seems backasswards to me.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce@securityfocus.com [mailto:listbounce@securityfocus.com]
On Behalf Of Craig Wright
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 1:24 PM
To: Dotzero; pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: The legal / illegal line?
Dotzero is correct, you can point out concerns to the party you have
contracted to and have them ask the third party to do something, or stay
away.
Worse still, in many common law juristictions (inc the US, UK, Au etc)
you may be breaking the law further by not freely giving any information
on the scan to the third party (tp). First there is no contract with the
TP to cover you for any damages (and scans can cause hosts to crash =
damage).
Next, you have no implied or explict license to engage in the action,
thus a breach of the TP's rights.
Thus if you call them after the even stating something along the lines
of "I have scanned your system and discovered vulnerability X, I will
send you the report for $1,000" for instance, you could be held to have
committed extortion. Where the TP exchanges money for the report, not
only have you handed them proof of the action, but this is now
blackmail.
Next, consideration can not pass after the event in a contract. Thus if
the party pays you, even where there is no criminal liability, they can
bring suit to regain the payment from you in that there was no valid
contract and the payment may be revoked.
People and firms have a legal right to ignorance. As much as we may want
to change this, they have the right to live in their own stupidity and
bare their own risk. You do not have the right to make them agree with
you - even if you are right.
Regards,
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce@securityfocus.com [mailto: listbounce@securityfocus.com]
On Behalf Of Dotzero
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2007 6:52 AM
To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Subject: Re: The legal / illegal line?
The original question from Barry was about legal vs illegal. There is
only one (IMHO) answer to that question. It depends on jurisdiction.
The laws that apply in one jurisdiction may not apply in another.
I'm also concerned about Barry asking about when others "approach a
client" to tell them about their insecurities following a "simple
pen-test".. They are NOT your client unless they have engaged you.
They are a potential client. They have no relationship with you and
you have not been authorized by them to do anything on their behalf.
Even if you haven't done anything illegal, most companies I'm familiar
with would be unlikely to hire you or your company under such
circumstances. The actions you describe are indicative of a failure to
recognize appropriate boundaries.
A more reasonable approach (and one more likely to attract business)
would be to have your sales people pitch a free security assessment.
Have a standard agreement authorizing a standard but limited set of
activities that you can then use to show a potential client how they
might benefit from your services.
As usual, just my 2 cents.
dotzero
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