From: Craig Wright (cwright@bdosyd.com.au)
Date: Thu Oct 05 2006 - 23:29:03 EDT
Hello Arian,
"Right now, I get to chose between competent professional or
whistleblower (assuming I am competent). Not both."
I would disagree. You can remain a professional and still do the
whistleblower bit. Will you make enemies, yes and I state this from
experience. Will it cost you money, yes. But the issue is that you can
do both, even of there is a cost.
I reported people in a company I owned 25% of 3 years ago. I still work.
The clients were happier (compared to finding out otherwise) that they
had been informed that they had been defrauded than otherwise.
On one hand it cost me over $1,500,000, numerous death threats, working
as an employee where I was the (wholly liable) director of the firm
previously, about three years of civil legal action etc etc.
On the other hand, I sleep at night.
I reported a client who had hired me when I discovered kiddie porn on
his system a few years back as well. The individual did not thank me,
but I had the client for years later. The bit about being a professional
is "how" you handle matters. Running to the press with every matter you
find is not professional. Can I write a simple guide to acting
professionally and how to handle everything that may arise, no? This is
something which is garnished through time and experience (which stated,
there are many tomes on the subject, some good).
"Who is going to be our Ralph Nader?" We all should be. You might
polarise people (I am either respected or hated vehemently with little
in the middle) - but we are here as security professionals (or at least
I hope that this is the case). We all have a duty. This is not a duty to
scan sites and use them as test beds and class tools (or worse),
If you report something and nothing is done, well you did your duty.
Sleep well and ignore the rebuff. At the same time, we are professionals
and not vigilantes - we have no right to judge the world and to take the
enforcement of any issues we note to heart. More so, we have no right to
actively look for holes in sites we have no connection to.
Regards,
Craig S Wright
-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce@securityfocus.com [mailto:listbounce@securityfocus.com]
On Behalf Of Arian J. Evans
Sent: Friday, 6 October 2006 5:18 AM
To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
Cc: bugtraq@securityfocus.com
Subject: RE: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...
btw// these "real-world" analogies are like guinea pigs.
They haven't a darn thing to do with the subject.
The subject is the law, which is not clearly defined on
these matters, but in the US you'll get a smattering of
wire-related laws, intention, and intended use interpretations.
If intended use wasn't defined, then we default to California
law where judges have upheld "if you can't define it, you
can't defend it", but if it was defined, then that's a whole
other gray area that I don't think most of us on this pen
test list are qualified to analyze (myself included).
Ask a Jennifer Grannick
Now, the interesting question we SHOULD /be discussing/
on this list, is who is going to be our Ralph Nader?
Some of this stuff is simply unsafe at any speed.
Right now, I get to chose between competent professional
or whistleblower (assuming I am competent). Not both.
-ae
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce@securityfocus.com
> [mailto:listbounce@securityfocus.com] On Behalf Of Levenglick, Jeff
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:04 PM
> To: Krpata, Tyler; bugtraq@cgisecurity.net;
> joe@learnsecurityonline.com; pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Cc: bugtraq@securityfocus.com
> Subject: RE: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...
>
> Tyler,
>
> What in the world are you talking about? If you read his
> email, he said
> that he was doing XXS and SQL injections on someone else's
> web site. In
> order for him to say that the SQL attack worked, he would have to see
> some data. Therefore, at the very least, he has viewed private data.
>
> What is VERY illegal is that fact that he knew there was an issue and
> then kept going. He should have stopped at that point and let the
> company know.
> (He should not have been there in the first place)
>
> A Good example-
> You walk along the sidewalk in a small town at night. All the
> stores are
> closed. For whatever reason you turn the door knob on each store you
> pass to see if the door is locked.
>
> You find one that is unlocked. A normal person would either close the
> door and leave or let someone know.
>
> This guy did the equivalent of going in the store to see if he could
> find other problems. Ie: A light is on, a fan is on...ect At that
> point, if you left a note telling the owner that not only was the door
> open, but you came in and tested everything in the store, I
> would think
> that he would call the cops and a lawyer and not you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce@securityfocus.com
> [mailto:listbounce@securityfocus.com]
> On Behalf Of Krpata, Tyler
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 4:13 PM
> To: bugtraq@cgisecurity.net; joe@learnsecurityonline.com;
> pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Cc: bugtraq@securityfocus.com
> Subject: RE: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...
>
> "On the count of entering an apostrophe into the Search box on the
> plaintiff's web site, how do you plead?"
>
> ....doubtful.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bugtraq@cgisecurity.net [mailto:bugtraq@cgisecurity.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 3:15 PM
> To: joe@learnsecurityonline.com; pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Cc: bugtraq@securityfocus.com
> Subject: RE: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...
>
> So you are admitting publicly that you and a class of
> students that you
> teach are illegally testing random public
> websites for the purpose of learning about security vulnerabilities?
> Sounds like you/your company need to speak
> with a lawyer.
>
> - Robert
> http://www.cgisecurity.com/ Application Security news and more
> http://www.cgisecurity.com/index.rss [RSS Security Feed]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listbounce@securityfocus.com
> [mailto:listbounce@securityfocus.com]
> On Behalf Of Joseph McCray
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 3:07 AM
> To: pen-test@securityfocus.com
> Subject: Informing Companies about security vulnerabilities...
>
> This probably won't sound like that big of a deal, but it
> still bothered
> me so I figured I'd ask the list. I was teaching a Web Application
> Security class last week and we were performing simple XXS, SQL
> Injection, etc on the vulnerable web apps I use for class.
>
>
>
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